Jim Rogers — Jim Rogers: What a Legendary Investor Told Me After 17 Years

[music] Welcome everybody. This is the absolute first episode of Pale Blue Nexus and I'm uh honored to have a longtime sort of like corresponder in my email, uh Jim Rogers. Jim, we've been corresponding for since uh 2009. I just checked my records. Uh you were a bit younger then, huh? And so was I.

Guess everybody was. [laughter]

We were talking about something that was a little bit uh close to my heart back then. And and you were big on the gold scene back then. Um what what has changed since 2009? And maybe we can just talk about like the macro environment first before we get into specifics.

Well, Johan, a lot of things have changed since 2009. You know, I'm older, you're older, everybody's older. I hope we're all richer. Um, hope we're all happier. Happy New Year.

Yes. Chinese New Year. So, you're you're out in Singapore. How is that going? Singapore and we have Chinese New Year here.

And And how do you feel about the year of the firehorse?

Hooray. Hooray. I actually was born in the year of the horse, so I good. I hope it's good news.

Oh, that's interesting cuz uh so was I. Do you know what your element is?

I don't know. I didn't know I had an element, so I guess I don't know.

Yeah, you'll have to look that up. I'm a earth horse. And uh this here is the fire horse. So you may be a water horse or a a gold horse. You might be a gold horse.

Look, gold. I'd like to be a gold horse. Yes. [laughter]

So tell me, Jib, how has it been out in the Asian nations since you've moved there?

Well, whether we like it or not, Asia is the future. I mean, the population is here and the prosperity is here. though I mean I don't particularly like it since I'm an American but America is the largest devil in the history of the world. Asia has lots of prosperity and lots of money. I'm quite happy in Asia. We live in Singapore which has been a very successful country. So we're delighted.

Very nice. And how has been the uh transition for your family? Well, my family, one of my daughters was actually born here. Uh, both of I mean, my dad, my older daughter has just graduated from university in Columbia, New York. So, she's now working. She's a got a real job and the other one is going to university next year. They're growing up.

Yeah. You must be a lucky guy to have two daughters. I have one myself and uh they're certainly a blessing. Well, I my my parents had five sons, so I know the girls are better than boys. Quite happy to have girls.

That's cool.  Um, you know, one of the things that we talked about on over email was like education.  Um, my mom was big on that and I figure I don't know how influenced you were by your parents, but I knew you went to Yale and Oxford and times have changed since then.  Um there just recently my colleague commented about it sounds a little crazy to spend 100k on education for their uh newly 18year-old or 19year-old is thinking about going to college.

What do you think about that tradeoff this this time with the world the way it is with the way AI is?  Um yeah what do you think your thoughts?  Well, I do know that university is good for people.  Uh, it helps you grow up.

It teaches you a bit about the world.  Uh, yes, you do learn some things.  You could learn those things going to the library, too.  But the university exposes you to new people, new experiences, new ideas.

I guess that's the best part of a university education is you meet new people, new ideas.  you have new experiences, things that never would have happened to you at home.  So that I am quite keen on university.  I went to a couple of nice universities and I suggest that everybody should do it.

It's the experience more than anything else.  You can read all those books wherever you are, whenever you are, but it's the experiences of meeting new people, having new experiences.  That's the best part.  Yeah, I guess it was always about that.

It just became more about that.  And it's uh even more important these days to surround yourself with uh the right people.  It's uh it's just interesting.  Do you think a high pre a high Ivy League highost Ivy League education is is uh is is the same as maybe a lesser school with a lesser cost?

Well, I mean, you can go to the state university in Mississippi or to Princeton.  Uh, both will be good experiences for you, extremely good experiences for you.  It's the experiences you have that are better than anything.  Now, I don't know if the people at Princeton are better than the people at the University of Mississippi, but I certainly had a lot of fun at Yale, had a lot of fun at Oxford.

Maybe I would have been I should have gone to University of Mississippi.  It's the It's the experiences and the new the new life that's the best part of it.

Would you share a couple of fun experiences that you had at Yale? I'm I'm curious.

Oh.  Oh, you know, when I went to Yale, I was from the backwoods of Alabama.  I didn't know anything.  I I my phone number when I went to Yale was five.

That's not a typo.  Five.  I didn't even know how to use dial telephones.  So going to Yale, I learned how to use f telephones if nothing else.

You know, it was a very good experience.  Nobody had ever heard of me or Alabama where I was from.  Nobody knew much of anything.  But that was a great experience.

Likewise at Oxford.  I met new people and learned new new things.  I learned new things just because they were new and different and they would they had different ideas about the world and that's the best part of it.  And what do you foresee as like some things that have stayed the same from back then versus today in today's world?

I I don't know. uh you must be keeping up with the rapid pace of AI and the use of it and people seem to be uh very concerned that their intelligence is being taken over by artificial means and uh it's concerning to them certain people anyways and some are not but uh what do you think has changed since that those times

you that's been going on throughout history I I mean, there was a time when the railroads caused great excitement and hysteria and terror.  Electricity.  Oh my gosh, electricity.  You know, there was a time when people were terrified of electricity, telephones, everything.

We'll see many new inventures, new I mean, I can remember when computers came along.  We were all wildly excited.  If you had a if you had a company and you had computer in your name and you were on Wall Street, your stock went up.  Just because it said computer, nobody quite knew what you did matter because your stock was going straight up.

So, it's always something new, something exciting.  Right now, it's AI.  And we're excited about AI.  But I repeat, this has all happened before.

And I hope we live long enough to see many many many more new exciting things.

That is such just a refreshing perspective.  Um I think I I remember during the 998 times when the web first came out and uh you're right any company that had the word web or search or anything web related was just uh like that.  and it seems like it's the same thing today.  But for some of the younger people who don't have that perspective, uh it may be um new to them.

And um I guess you're you're absolutely right about that and maybe you can uh give a little bit more perspective about the trends that you see today like uh investment wise uh how do you feel about the space and uh where do you see some of the the shifts happening?

Well, and I've been investing for a long time.  I mean I have to pay my bills.  Well, once I learned about investing, I thought it was very wonderful.  It was great.

I didn't know anything about them when I went to Wall Street the first time, but it very exciting for me.  And it still is, you know, it's a place where you have to know about the world.  And I came to realize that that was my passion in life is knowing what was happening in the world.  So, for me, it's been a wonderful place.

And they pay me.  Oh my gosh, they pay me.  you know, if you do it well, they pay you a lot of money.  So, for me, investing is a wonderful way to spend your time.

Um, when I was a student, I thought I was going to go to law school and medical school and everything.  I was a confused kid like many other people.  I discovered Wall Street and thank goodness I discovered it because otherwise I might be a lawyer in Atlanta or something right now. [laughter]

Yeah, we wouldn't want that, would we? And you would certainly wouldn't.

No. No.

And you wouldn't have made that one-of-a-kind Mercedes. Uh I took a look at it and um Did you choose the color yellow or was that uh your partner?

No, no.  I I they got it yellow and I specifically got yellow because part of the plan was to drive around the world and I knew that there were very few yellow cars in the world and I knew that they would be distinctive and it might save my life, you know, because I knew that wherever I was, people would say, "Look at that yellow car. " And that means, you know, if the bandits were coming, everybody would be watching.  So, I hoped it would save my life.

I'm still alive, so maybe it did.  And I mean, what were you thinking on that day in n I I believe it was 1999 that you you took off um you guys and in in that car with the little trailer on the back.  How what was the feeling like that day?  And um I guess did you think that you would have made it all the way through 116 countries and uh I countless number of miles.

Well, you know I am lucky to be alive. You know many people set off to drive I mean many people set off to drive to the cap and they get killed. So I am lucky to be alive. I'm delighted to be alive. I I when I set off, I was excited because I was hoping for a great adventure. I knew I might not make it. I'm happy I made it, but I was apprehensive, but I was also very excited because I knew that if I did it, it was going to be an exciting adventure. And I hoped I had survived.

So, how did it start? It went from Iceland and then you went across Russia. Was that the start?

Well, I Yeah, I drove from Iceland to Ireland to England to Russia to through China and then I and Japan and then I came back through Siberia through Russia went back to Ireland. So I crossed Eurasia twice and then I went down through Africa and we did all around Africa. I think 50 countries in a 35 countries in Africa then Australia, New Zealand down to the tip of South America and up to Alaska. And many of us hoay had a lot of fun and I'm delighted to be alive. I'm lucky to be alive. How many tires did you change on that trip?

More than once. We did have flat tires.

Okay.  Yeah, it uh it's it's a it's a trip of a lifetime, I'd say.  And um where did you stay?  What was the one of the most fun places that you stayed?

And what were some of the places that you said, "Yeah, you know what?  I'm going to try and speed through this place. " Well, I mean, we we all I always wanted to stay in a hotel.  I mean, sometimes the best hotel in town was a a shed.

It was not always very nice, but you know, we sometimes had to camp in the Sahara Desert.  There no hotels, so we slept in the in the sand.  You know, the stars at night in the Sahara Desert are glorious.  If you're ever there, be sure to spend the night.

that started at night and it saw like nothing else.  But everything I mean you know no matter where I was it didn't matter whether it was Tokyo or London everything was exciting and new and different for me and I was from a small town in Alabama so everything was exciting to me.  Yeah, it uh that that must have been opened up your eyes to the world and you wrote books after that and some even before that.  Um the book my gift to my children I actually read uh as a young man and I actually gave that to my daughter when she turned just around nine or 10.

Um

talk about talk about that book. what inspired you to write it and also what you would change for today's world?

Well, I I wrote the book because [sighs] I had never been a father before and I knew that I wanted there were things I wanted to try to tell my children, teach my children.  Uh the problem is no matter what you teach your children, you know, you know, if every parent alive knows that their children are very smart kids, they think they're very smart, but anything you can teach them is good experience, especially as experience.  So I had the idea that I was going to try to teach my kids as much about life as I could.  But as I have learned, you can never teach your children as much about life as you.

They need to know because they have to learn it on their own.  They have to make their own mistakes.

Yep. It's it's it's it's something coming from the dad. You may have you may have more success uh for your children reading that book if you wrote it under a pseudonym and told them it was from somebody else. Right. [laughter] Well, I will tell you, Johan, when I was 18 or whatever, I was the smartest 18year-old in the world and everything I thought was wrong. I was totally wrong about everything, about myself, about the world, about life. I learned that the hard way, the easy way, the best way by experience and life.

Yep. We certainly do have to make our own mistakes and live life our own way. Um it's uh it's not something that we can be told but also if we want to there's certain people who can learn by reading a book or uh seeing other people uh fail. But uh for me myself, I'm a I'm a doer and I learn by experience. I don't know how it is for you.

Well, I I'm not the first one to know that experience is the best teacher. I mean, you know, whether you're a fool or a genius, experience is the best teacher that anybody can have. And that's how you learn about people, about life, about everything. success, failure, it all was there.

Do you still feel and I know that after you traveled the world uh you decided to move to Asia, move to Singapore. Um do you feel that the eastern countries in the world they have a different mindset when it comes to hard work and discipline? Uh I think that was something that we talked about and you talked about back in uh in 2009. Do you feel it's the same today? Do you feel uh the society is just as creative as American society? Um yeah, comment on those things.

Well, Johan, history is pretty clear.  If you're in country X in 1500 or country Y in 1900, they're different countries, but the people learn.  Ambitious people and smart people learn.  They have to work hard.

They have to do the right thing if they're going to be successful.  Everybody learns that.  It doesn't matter where you are.  It doesn't matter how old you are, but everybody eventually learns that.

And that was the that's what distinguishes successful people from unsuccessful people.  I wish it were easy.  I wish all I had to do was read a book.  I wish all I had to do was go to school.

Doesn't work that way.

Yeah.  I guess there's a certain point in a person's life where they they realize that they're they're they are their own best chance at being successful.  Yes, many people never quite get that, but the pretty successful people of course figure that out.  Doesn't matter whether they're whatever it is, if they're an entrepreneur or an academic, whatever they are, they realize they have to do it themselves and they get on with it.

I wish it were easy.  I wish all I had to do was read a book or take a course.  My experience is it doesn't work that way.  having traveled to all those countries and seeing and I don't know if you keep up to date with things.

You probably have better things to do with your time.  Uh you may not but you and you may be totally plugged in.  Um how have the demographics changed and if you were to do that trip um what would you think it would teach you and where would you go?

Where would I go?  Go around the world.  Doesn't matter where I would go, Johan.  You're going to learn something.

Whether you drive through Siberia or Africa or Germany, you're going to learn something.  You know, it doesn't matter what you do, where you are if you if you do it.  Beauty of traveling on around the world is you're close to the ground and so you have to have lots of experiences and that's going to teach you a lot.  Maybe you've never drank beer before, but if you're in Germany, you're going to learn to drink beer and you're going to meet a lot of Germans and you're going to learn something.

But that doesn't it could that could be China.  I could say that about Brazil.  I could say that about many places.  The experience of meeting people, being with people, learning how they think, and you're going to realize, oh my gosh, that's very different.

For them, it's not different.  It's just cuz you you came from a small town nowhere.  So, you never saw a Chinese before.  So, all of this is educational, eyeopening, and but it'll certainly teach you, taught me.

Anyway,

there's a news story going around now. Uh I'm based in Canada and you're from Alabama and the news headline the other day on one of the papers was that uh Canada has realized that it's just as just as poor or even worse off than Alabama. I think that that comes from a data point that showed that the GDP per capita is on par with uh Alabama, the entire country of Canada. What do you think about that? What does that say about us here?

Well, [sighs and gasps] I've been to Canada often.  I've driven across Canada a few times.  I've always been impressed.  I've always had fun in Canada.

There always new experiences, new people.  I don't know if it's the same GVP as Alabama or Germany.  Doesn't matter.  But Canada is an extremely interesting.

I mean, you're lucky in some ways to be from Canada because it's going to teach you a lot about the world.  Going to teach you a lot about North America.  going to teach you a lot about the United States if you're from Canada because you can see it through different eyes.  No, Canada has a great history, great story, and I presume a great future.

Nice.  That's a that's a that's a wonderful perspective.  I I I really like that a lot.  Um, what do you see as some of the opportunities today for young people to capitalize on in general?

The main opportunity for everybody is what they love.  I mean, I can sit here and tell you, "Oh my gosh, you should be a baseball player. " But if you don't like baseball, don't don't don't listen to me or anybody else.  The most important thing to learn is what you love.

And it's hard sometime to figure out what you love the most.  But young people should figure out what they love the most.  And they should pursue that.  And it doesn't matter what it is.

If you want to be a farmer, be a farmer.  I mean, if that's what you love, you're going to be successful and excited and have a good life.  If I tell you to be a lawyer and you really want to be a farmer, please be a farmer cuz that will be exact.  And even if you're not rich and famous, doesn't matter because you'll be happy.

Doesn't matter if you're rich or famous, you'll be happy.  And that's the most important.

I believe I heard a world leader few weeks ago say something similar.  More people need to find their vocation.  Does that resonate with the same message?  Like a vocation is something that you love.

I believe um I looked it up and it it sounds like the same thing.  Well, I don't know who you heard, but I'm telling you the most important thing that anybody can do is to figure out what they love and pursue it.  It does not matter what it is.  If your parents say, "Oh my god, I don't want you to be a gardener, but you love gardening.

" Please be a gardener.  Be a gardener.  You'll be the most successful gardener in town and happy even if you're not successful.  The most important thing, young, and I want to say it over and over, the most important thing is to figure out what you really love.

And please pursue that.  Don't listen to me or other people.  Pursue what you really love.  Some people grow up a little confused.

Some people grow up a little misguided.  How does one what are some strategies to figure out what you love from from early on?  Um, I think you know what I mean here, but also [clears throat] what do you feel about maybe the experience of going to school would help with that.

Well, I wish I could tell you how to figure out what you love.  I found it by accident.  You know, I thought I was going to go to law school and be a lawyer.  Thank goodness I stumbled onto Wall Street, but it was purely an accident.

I got a summer job there because I happened to like the guy and fell in love with Wall Street because it was a place they would pay me to know what was going on in the world.  But I, like many young people, didn't know enough about myself or the world to know what to do.  So I I don't know how to tell people to figure it out or to learn it, but the most important thing to anybody is to figure out what you love the most.  And please pursue it.

Pursue it.  Pursue it.  And if you want to be a gardener, don't listen to people tell you not to be a gardener.  For goodness sakes, be a gardener.

You're going to be successful and you're going to be happy.

Yeah.

And which Yeah. There you go. What's the um So, speaking about doing things you love, uh I observe my daughter sometimes and and what she spends her time on and I tell her to do more of it because she's clearly, I guess, infatuated with the the process of building up a large house in Roblox, a large property, and then demolishing it and starting it up again and demolishing it and starting it up again. So, I'm like I think to myself, I'm like, "You must love architecture and designing and uh decorating, and it's it's totally right down her alley."

Well, you and I I don't know your daughter, but I'm delighted to hear you are encouraging her to do what she loves because I do know that's extremely important. Many people tell their children, "Oh, no, no, you should be a lawyer." blah blah blah. No, if you want to be a gardener, be a gardener. That's going to be the best for you and you're going to be a very successful gardener. So, don't listen to me. Don't listen to others. And it's not easy. And many people never find out or they're afraid to do what they really love. But that's the best advice I can give any person old or young.

Sounds good. And what's the what do you love these days, Jim? Like what's the I I I could only imagine that uh being a dad myself and you're a dad that uh we obviously are in love with just raising our kids and and making sure that uh you're there for them when they need it and guiding them. Uh but like how was how were how was the process of being a dad?

Well, I would tell you all my life I was against having children. I felt sorry for my friends who had children. I had one I had my first child when I was 60 6

and I my second child when I was 65 and I would say to Johan it's been astonishing exciting wonderful for me. You know I want to say it's one of the best things I ever did. Now, if I'd had a child when I was 23, it would have been a mistake for the child and for me and for the mother and for everybody. But there came a time I now realized when I was ready, I had done many things. So, for me, the most exciting thing I have done now is to be a father. And I have two of them. They're great.

Wonderful. And uh I guess no better time to do it. And I'm and and and have that experience as well. Like you said, some people have the kids too early and uh they they don't uh appreciate the the process and you were probably in a position where you appreciated the process a lot more.

Well, I don't know if I got it right or not, but I'm certainly very very pleased and happy and excited with what I did. I think I did it at a very good time for me. So, we'll see. Can ask me 40 years.

Yeah. And uh if you if you had to write that book again, A gift to my children, would you add any chapters?

No. I just The one thing I would emphasize over and over for everybody is please figure out a way to find out what you love the most. And many people never find it or even if they find it, they're afraid to do it. But the most important thing is to figure out what you love and do it. Pursue it. Do it. Pursue it. Pursue it. Pursue it. [sighs and gasps] It's the most important advice I can give anybody.

Wonderful advice. And uh yeah, you've you've said it uh quite a number of times and I and I think that comes from uh more happy people. It would result in more happy people, a better world, and uh just a place that uh is fun to be around when you have people that love what they're doing. And I think that's what what you're getting at. What excites you these days, Jim?

What is what these days?

What excites you these days?  my kids more than anything else.  But no, I still am very keen on the world.  I love going new places.

I love going old places.  I mean, you know, I'm going to England again next month.  I've been to England many times, but it's still exciting and interesting.  Seeing the world is for me the best way to live.

Now, maybe that's cuz I'm from a small town where my phone number was five.  Maybe that's it, you know.  But what for whatever reason, seeing the world for me is still the best thrill.  Even if I'd been there before, seeing it again, whatever [clears throat] it is, is a thrill.

That's amazing, Jim. And uh are you having any public events uh soon uh that you want to let us know about? Are you working on anything publicly?

Well, I usually am. I cannot remember right now. I mean, people still periodically invite me to speak and I love doing it. So, I'm sure that thing is coming up. I'm sure my assistant will put them on the website. But the answer, the main answer to your question is I don't know, Johan. I don't know. But there's always something to do and I like doing it. I like new people and new countries, new experiences.

I it's it's been a great pleasure to have you on the show today as especially as my first guest. My whole concept behind this show is to bring the conversation between humans uh back to the forefront. A lot of people are talking about tech. A lot of people are talking about AI and I think like in this world we're just trying to make sense of the world today and uh I'm glad we could do it from this point here and uh I appreciate you coming on.

Well, Johan, I hope you're going to help all of us learn what's happening and what's going on in the world.  We all need to know about the world.  We all need to know about reality.  That's the most important thing.

We can read the newspaper or watch the TV or something, but the most important thing is to know what's really happening and what it means.  Not just what's happening, but what it means.  And that's the hard part.  I hope you can help educate all of us.

And before we go, do you have any insights on into where you would keep an eye out for signals so that maybe some of my listeners can say, "Hey, you know, uh, these are some signals.

Well, let's listen to Johan's show, [laughter] you know, see what he's coming up with. The best thing is to have new experiences, meet new people, different places, whatever it is. because there's always something happening in the world. There's always something we don't know about. And for me, the best thing is to try to find those things and figure out what they are. And I never know what they are. That's why it's always so interesting when I can find something new.

Awesome. Well, I appreciate your time today, sir, and I thank you for uh your candid thoughts on things that if we really listen to, uh there's a lot of wisdom in there, and I appreciate you sharing that with my my audience and uh kicking off the new show. So, thanks, Jim. Uh would you mind staying on just for a minute after and then we could uh I could let you go.

Well, thank you. Thank you. It was my pleasure. Good luck to you and happy new year to everybody.